a question for the scholars out there

I have no scholary reference to back this up and am too lazy to do any googling right now, but I'll share what I've heard/read in various places on the question.

In the early Church, when many Christians came from the Jewish faith, the Sabbath continued to be celebrated on Saturday. Sunday was used to celebrate the Christian aspects of the faith -- it coincided with the day that Jesus rose from the dead. Eventually, as Christianity grew as a religion in its own right and became less connected to its Jewish roots -- especialy in light of Jesus' claims that the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around, the recognition of Saturday as Sabbath became less prominant and was dropped alltogether.

Yeshua didn't tell us anything that wasn't already in the Torah when He said that the Sabbath was made for man; for it is written, "Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. (Exodus 31:14)"

Precisely. So, as long as we keep a day of rest, it's all okay. And if we are called to serve on that day, then it doesn't matter.

So, as long as we keep a day of rest, it's all okay. And if we are called to serve on that day, then it doesn't matter.

That's not what I've been saying or teaching at all. Sorry. :-P Yeshua observed Shabbat on the 7th day. To make an extreme analogy, look at Isaiah 5:20, as it is written, "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

As I said before, you can observe Shabbat in your homes with friends and family. You can take these teachings to your church and show them. And if you have any questions regarding these teachings, you can go straight to the person who's giving the teachings should any questions or comments arise.

if you seriously want to research the topic, i would start with the seventh day adventists and seventh day baptists, they have long, well thought out arguments for a seventh day sabbath.

this short paragraph from: http://www.bible.ca/7-White-halo.htm

# The first historical record of methodical Sabbath Keeping by Christians who stopped worshipping on the first day of the week, was two active Anabaptist leaders, Andreas Fisher and Oswald Glait, became the pioneer and promoters of the Sabbath in 1527 AD. Both were former priests who had sacrificed the priesthood to become first Lutherans, and then Anabaptists. Glait and Fischer, who had been taught the false doctrine of the Catholic and Lutheran churches, that Sunday is the Sabbath, were astonished to read in the Bible that the Sabbath was indeed the 7th day! When they began to teach this, theologians were sent to persuade them to abandon what they called the "Jewish Sabbath." Both of them suffered a martyr death, largely due to their Sabbatarian views.
# Modern Sabbatarians owe a debt of gratitude to these early Sabbath pioneers whose work later influenced the origin of the Seventh-day Baptist church.
# The latter (Joseph Bates) has been instrumental in helping the early Adventists and other Christians to rediscover the Sabbath. Historically, it was in 1844 the first Seventh-day Adventists (known then as Millerites) started keeping the Sabbath, introduced to them by a Seventh-day Baptist named Joseph Bates, who convinced their Methodist minister that the Bible teaches us to keep the Sabbath.


be aware that the site is anti-SDA, but the paragraph is essentially correct historicallly.

the argument against the 7th day sabbathtarians is not simple, but understanding the strength of the 7th day adventists position is the beginning of the path to understanding the whole issue.

the argument against the 7th day sabbathtarians is not simple

Nor is any argument against 7th day sabbathtarians valid.

actually.

assume a 6 day 24 hr creation a la the YEC's
the sabbath is an institution that reflects God's eternal 7 week plan.

1-the original 7th day was lost between the creation week and the giving of the law on Sinai. therefore there is only a 1 in 7 chance of the Sabbath of Sinai corresponding to the sabbath of creation week.

2-there is no evidence that the sabbath was preserved intact via Hebraic history from the giving of the law on Sinai to the establishment of reliable calendars with known accuracy of days at about 250BC

therefore logically the odds of our saturday = the hebraic yom Shabbat = the 7th day of creation is 1/7 * 1/7 or 1/49 or about 2%. this alone is enough for me to contend that the whole thing is a legalistic not-an-issue made up to distinguish groups via their day of worship.

Speaking as the community's Very Favorite Messianic Jew

Behold, it is written, "Six days you are to do your work, but on the seventh day you shall cease from labor in order that your ox and your donkey may rest, and the son of your female slave, as well as your stranger, may refresh themselves. (Exodus 23:12)"

It's not God rested on the first day and then created the world in six days. It's not God worked three days, rested for a day, then finished his work the last three days. It's: God worked six days, then rested on the seventh.

Besides, you can have the Sabbath in your own home. You don't have to go to church to enjoy the Sabbath. You don't have to go to church to worship God. In fact, if you started sharing what you've been learning from the Messianic Jews in this community, you could take that and you could share it with others in your church, and then MAYBE, just maybe you could convince some of them to start having Shabbat dinners on Saturday. It could be Godly fellowship!

Re: Speaking as the community's Very Favorite Messianic Jew

Where do the differences between the Jewish and our modern calendar come in to this? What we judge as a "Saturday" now isn't when it would be if we were still following that calendar. Therefore, theoretically, even those that observe the Sabbath on Saturday wouldn't be truly observing it as it was 2000 years ago. The calendar has changed, how do we justify this?

Jewish calendar history and current calendar

Read a link about the history of the Jewish calendar. After that, see a link about the current calendar.

read it, still don't understand

I'm unable to see how this explains how the Sabbath observed today is the same as it would be in the Jewish calendar...maybe I'm just missing something. I understand how the current calendar and the Jewish calendar are related, but it doesn't answer the questions in my mind.

Based upon the Bible - the Sabbath has not switched days. It was and is the last day of the week - Saturday.

Christians, from the very beginning of the church, met together on the first day of the week - Sunday. Various scholars have presented reasons why; the most likely being in rememberance that it was on Sunday that Jesus rose from the dead. They also continued to meet in the synagogues and worship at the Temple. They also met during other days during the week.

The various Christian denominations that call Sunday "the Sabbath" and impose Mosaic Law restrictions (legalism) are operating out of Biblical ignorance or historical tradition. There is no Scripture that justifies calling Sunday the Sabbath. It does support Christians meeting together for public worship, study, and prayer on Sunday.

Imposing the Torah isn't legalism, this is legalism. The letter of the Torah is legalism -- not the Spirit of the Torah (Mosaic Law). Every denomination of Christianity on some level imposes some jot or tittle of the Torah.

Sorry. I should have used a better connector than "and".

What I meant is that imposing the Mosaic Law restrictions of the Sabbath onto Sunday is legalism.


Allow me to clarify.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NIV) "All Scripture [Law, Prophets, and Psalms] is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

-- So, the Torah is critical instruction to Christians so that they know the mind and will of God.


Romans 3:20 (NIV) Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

-- The Law is the means by which we become conscious of sin. If it were not for the law, we would not know what God expects from us. Through the Law, we see that we are sinners, cannot save ourselves, and thus need the redemption provided only by God through the Messiah.


Romans 3:27-28 (NIV) Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

-- For the Christian, following the letter of the Law is meaningless to obtain salvation. Doing so cannot save a person. Instead, just as Abraham was justified by faith, we too are justified by faith, in Jesus; not faith in how well we satisfy the Law.


Colossians 2:16-19 (NIV) Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

-- As another verse expands upon, as Christians it is not important what day is celebrated. One Christian who chooses to hold public worship on Saturday is just as free to do so as one choosing Sunday. If a Christian should judge another Christian because "you are not doing it on the 'right' day", then the judging Christian is not showing the right attitude and is guilty of judging on unimportant things.


Romans 14:5-6 (NIV) One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

-- Each believer is able to choose which day they want to make sacred and how they choose to observe it. Other believers are to respect that choice, not judge it.


NOW, what about the actual instructions about the first day of the week ...


1 Corinthians 16:1-2 (NIV) Now about the collection for God’s people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

-- It was a time to take the collection, which would be used to pay the preachers and help those in need (orphans, widows, crippled)


Acts 20:7 (NIV) On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

-- It was a time of fellowship and teaching.

So, the Torah is critical instruction to Christians so that they know the mind and will of God.

Agreed.

Colossians 2:16-19 (NIV)

You quoted this out of context to support a false doctrine of Sunday being just as good as Saturday. If you go down to verses 20-23, you'll see that the commandments of men are Paul's issue and what Paul's attacking in this verse. Gentiles were observing the 7th day Shabbat with Jews in the synagogues (Acts 15:21) in the first century. The problem is that the Jews tried to impose the commandments of men on the Gentiles (as you can see in the last three verses). Therefore, we need to read this in its proper context and see that they were observing the holy days and the 7th day Shabbat.

Romans 14:5-6 (NIV)

This was taken out of context to support a doctrine of relativism. It is my earnest desire to stamp out relativism, so please don't take what I'm saying as an offense towards you. This was not Paul's intent with those words. Read here for a detailed analysis of the book of Romans -- and in particular the scriptures that you quoted.

As an aside....

In a conversation with the community's Very Favorite Messianic Jew, I mentioned to him that Protestant denominations recognize the Sabbath as Sunday, and that in order to hear the word of God, it's either Sunday or nothing...

I find this odd... As to hear the word of God, you must hear Christ - who IS the Word of God - I doubt that it is limited to when someone preaches. I hear Christ whenever He cares to speak, which is usualy when I need Him most. I can read the bible any time and any time that I am in fellowship with the Spirit, I am a part of His Church, which is not found in a building or a demonination. Is God split into factions? Is God part of all those religious ideas? No. God is God. Let's get down to hearing Him and worshipping Him.

Jesus was not bound by the Sabbath, He is</> the Sabbath. The Sabbath is our rest and Christ is our rest. Our rest is in spirit and not bound by any one day. The Sabbath day was kept to remind people of the rest that is in God. It was made into a law because of the hardness of the hearts of the Israelites coming out of Egypt... because of the hardness of the hearts of all men that always want their things before God's things. That Law judges us all perfectly unto the death that we deserve. To be joined with Christ is to be resurrected and to join with Him above that Law, so that it is a tool in the hands of the sons of God, those led by His Spirit, rather than a taskmaster over those that are not. So... labor to enter into the rest of God, through the hearing and believing of Him. When He speaks, desire to be obedient so that you have the works of life and not dead works.

Carol

I agree. The sabbath-rest, as commented on in Hebrews, is a state of rest and union with Christ where superficial religious works cease, and by the Grace of Jesus Christ one is clothed with the character of Christ and lives out by grace what God is by nature. It has nothing to do with a day or time by which our pride allows us to say one is "in" and another "out."

Thank you for your comment, and may we all labor to enter into that rest.

Would you agree that the rest that Paul spoke of in Hebrews chapter four is indeed the Millennial Kingdom that Yeshua reigns over for 1,000 years?

I think I should have been more specific...

I'm not in any way saying that Sunday *must* be the Sabbath...it was just that in that particular debate, OCFMJ was making an issue about Saturday being the *only* Sabbath, not Sunday. Personally, I think the issue isn't the day, but the Glory, and I do not forsake the gathering of others in His name, as is written. If I were to be strict to the Sabbath-on-Saturday rule, I'd have to forsake that gathering, and that ain't kosher for me.

the eastern orthodox take on it is that saturday is the sabbath and sunday is the Lord's day (the 8th day - liturgically speaking)

and we are in church both days.

Eastern Orthodoxy

I'm interested in Eastern Orthodoxy, even though I'm a Messianic Jew. Is Eastern Orthodoxy the same as the Church of the East? Do the Eastern Orthodox celebrate the commanded holy days in Leviticus 23 that even Paul commanded we observe in 1 Corinthians?

Re: Eastern Orthodoxy

no, we do not celebrate the jewish feasts.

but you might be interested in this book: http://light-n-life.com/shopping/order_product.asp?ProductNum=OZWO100


a jewish friend of mine who has visited my church told me that our service is very much like his own temple worship.

you might be interested in coming to a service once to see it.

Re: Eastern Orthodoxy

a jewish friend of mine who has visited my church told me that our service is very much like his own temple worship.

That's awesome. I bet y'all would be able to attract more Jewish people to Yeshua if y'all observed the Jewish feasts (Matthew 23:37-39).

you might be interested in coming to a service once to see it.

I don't know if there are any Eastern Orthodox congregations in Austin, but I'll look into it. Thank you for the information.

As much as I've read this community, no one has ever brought this up. I'm glad you did.

http://www.sabbath-day.com

That is a really good site to read up on the Sabbath. God never changed the Sabbath day, so we know the Sabbath is from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, and not only that Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man (Man translated from the Greek text is Anthropos..means humans) in Mark 2:27,28. It was never the first day of the week which is Sunday. Man (aka whatever church) changed the day to Sunday to appease to the pagans who worshipped the sun (Sunday =Day of the sun), and bring in this paganistic day and mix it with Christianity.

This is even from the Catechism:

A Convert's Catechism

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her. Oddly enough Jesus never built His church on a person by the name of Peter either..but thats another topic
Q. What does the Third Commandment command?
A. The Third Commandment commands us to sanctify Sunday as the Lord's Day. Again this was changed by man.. not God. No one can do this unless God does this, and no one on earth is God


God never changed the day, the church of Laodicea did. Which was not from God. Only he has the authority to do so.

Sure, it doesn't matter what day we worship God on, we can worship him every day if we want to. But God And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it and no one else has the authority to do so except God.